I do find it hard to fathom why they have the support they do, particularly from working class areas.
The Tories have subjected the worst-off people in this Country to 10 years of austerity measures, their millionaire mates weren’t covering the fiscal implications of the banking crash, ordinary people were. The NHS was severely underfunded during this period as was Local Government service provision, to the tune of 60%+ cuts in funding. Foodbank usage, child poverty, homelessness, they’ve all soared since 2010. What else has soared is the gap between the rich and the poor, the most well off people in our society were exempt from austerity, the Tory Govt made sure of that. Fast forward to Universal Credit, disaster. Fast forward to Brexit, disaster. Not only are we now the pariah of Europe, we are decimating what industries we have. The real cost of Brexit is yet to emerge, it’s face has been saved somewhat by the pandemic. Fast forward to the pandemic, disaster. The Government’s handling in 2020 was appalling; NHS under-prepared, no equipment, slow to react to border control, slow to react to scientific advice, flouting of the rules, cronyism quickly turning to flagrant corruption, £22B on an ineffective track-and-trace system, messing schools about, the list goes on. They did get furlough right, after a couple of botched attempts anyway. And now they have the vaccination strategy right in 2021, thankfully. Well done to the NHS for being able to deliver on that strategy.
The cabinet itself is a poor mix of habitual failures and unlikely wannabees, Johnson himself forefront in terms of previous failures and blunderings. Williamson and Patel are the worst ministers I’ve seen in following UK politics since the mid-80s. Hancock has got better as the pandemic has gone on but isn’t exactly motivating in his addresses. Sunak has fared well but, personally, I find it difficult to take financial advice, usually restrictive in its nature, from the UK’s richest-ever MP.
I just think their ineptitude and callous nature since 2010, their severe mismanagement of some of the most critical incidents in UK politics since WW2, leave them there to be held to account. I think it can be safely stated that Starmer is not up to the job, he has let Johnson slip through his fingers constantly where a competent leader of an effective opposition would have been scoring heavily, and easily, against him.
As a Labour supporter, it’s all very disappointing. As a UK citizen, I think we deserve better all round. The last decade has been a real nadir for UK politics.
Agree with much of your summary GPO 1971 but taking the Boris failures into account why do even those badly hit by austerity still appear to accept him. He is Teflon man personified.
Starmer was hamstrung in that he couldn't be seen to be anti health measures , he had exposed failures. But Boris's rehearsed tirades, with no answers, still seem to satisfy voters.
But too many ex-Labour voters seem to excuse Boris, as so many old Etonians do, be cause he's a bit of a 'jack the lad' image. Much like Trump in character - made their money by dodgy means, Trump dodged tax, Boris gives backhanders to his mates etc etc. (in Local Govt he would have been sacked under gross misconduct!) but the masses see this as lively and 'clever' . He gets what he wants!
It has worked for him so far but it will catch up because he will take it for granted. The poor will suffer as always, but their votes may not be enough.
Tbh as a letter writer to the Guardian says in to day's paper its the voters that I despair of! If they are happy they may get the govt that they deserve!
Nicely worded post sandgroper, but much like the Guardian letter writer you aren’t prepared to call a spade a spade and say imperfect people like me are just thick.
Why do look down on people who hold different opinions to you?
gpo - Didn't the banking crash still happen whilst Labour were still in? Had they gambled the house and spent all the money in the good times (& more), then left a note saying the money has all gone?
Whilst there is cause for an argument about the extent of austerity/who pays what etc. there really isn't an argument that Labour spent too much surely? If rugby if teams spend too much and go bust it's the fault of the owners and the next lot have to try and clean up. Surely in very loose terms this similarly applies to governments as well? When does spending go too far? How much national debt (Pre Covid) is too much? Does spending way beyond means make a good government? Just devils advocate here.
There have been lots of mistakes as you say, along with some good points, but do you think any of the Labour leaders over the past decade would have handled (m)any of this better? The thought of Corbyn and his team being in charge over the last couple of years in particular is terrifying.
I don't believe much of what any of them say, but I think very few trust Labour, which is why they do so badly. Starmer in particular seems to change his mind like the wind and back whichever policy he heard last/thinks will win him the most votes.
gpo – Didn’t the banking crash still happen whilst Labour were still in? Had they gambled the house and spent all the money in the good times (& more), then left a note saying the money has all gone? Whilst there is cause for an argument about the extent of austerity/who pays what etc. there really isn’t an argument that Labour spent too much surely? If rugby if teams spend too much and go bust it’s the fault of the owners and the next lot have to try and clean up. Surely in very loose terms this similarly applies to governments as well? When does spending go too far? How much national debt (Pre Covid) is too much? Does spending way beyond means make a good government? Just devils advocate here. There have been lots of mistakes as you say, along with some good points, but do you think any of the Labour leaders over the past decade would have handled (m)any of this better? The thought of Corbyn and his team being in charge over the last couple of years in particular is terrifying. I don’t believe much of what any of them say, but I think very few trust Labour, which is why they do so badly. Starmer in particular seems to change his mind like the wind and back whichever policy he heard last/thinks will win him the most votes.
Yes it did (2008).
Unfortunately for them, and despite the best of intentions, the last 2 times they've been in power, they've ended up bringing the country to its knees..
The banking crash was worldwide rather than restricted to UK. I agree that Labour leaders after the Blair era have been non-leaders, largely thanks to Len McCluskey . Boris is feathering the nests of his mates as most can see.
I don't look down on others opinions, just sorry that so many these days don't even bother to really pay attention to what goes on.
It is my belief that politics is like a pendulum It swings both ways, and balances out in the long run. As Ernest Hemingway said pubilc opinion moves very slowly, then fast!
My only worry is for my kids tbh!
The banking crash was worldwide rather than restricted to UK. I agree that Labour leaders after the Blair era have been non-leaders, largely thanks to Len McCluskey . Boris is feathering the nests of his mates as most can see. I don’t look down on others opinions, just sorry that so many these days don’t even bother to really pay attention to what goes on. It is my belief that politics is like a pendulum It swings both ways, and balances out in the long run. As Ernest Hemingway said pubilc opinion moves very slowly, then fast! My only worry is for my kids tbh!
Correct, but I don't recall many (if any) countries losing their Triple A credit rating as a result...
Ahh yes... the same Tony Blair that took us kicking & screaming into a 10 year war that had nothing to do with us, and cost hundreds of our Armed Forces Personnel along the way.... That Tony Blair...???
Ahh yes... Another well worn trope, that Labour trot out every time a new Tory PM comes into power...
I grew up under a Tory government, and it did me no harm.
(...Yes, I know the Poll Tax was bad, but to be fair, that wasn't even Thatcher's idea ...It was the brain child of future Brexit Denier in Chief, Sir Oliver Letwin...)
Instead of bashing the Tories at every possible opportunity...
ask yourself this...
1). Why are Labour currently unelectable...???
And,
2). When Labour have been in power previously, Why did it go so cataclysmically wrong that they didn't see power again for a generation...???
Answer those questions, and you might even find a cure for Labour Voter bitterness too!!!
Came across this interesting quote that should be sent to everyone who can't be bothered to vote:
"If you do not take an interest in the affairs of your government, then you are doomed to live under the rule of fools." Plato
In response to Widneslatic, didn't the UK lost the AAA rating twice under a Conservative Government in 2013 and again in 2016. It was a world banking crisis, but its origins came from the deregulation of the financial markets in the USA and UK in the 70s, supported by both Conservative and Labour Governments.
At every opportunity, the Conservatives highlighted the size of the UK debt as a result of measures taken by Gordon Brown to recover from the impact of the banking crisis - a lead followed by other countries - but somehow don't mention that in response to the current world crisis, the debt is even higher. Funny that.
Growing up under the Thatcher Government may have done you no harm, but the deindustrialisation left many areas in the North and Midlands as manufacturing wastelands, the effects of which are still felt today. The community charge (or poll tax) was proposed as an alternative to rates as a way of funding local government, in a Green Paper based on the ideas from the Adam Smith Institute and its main proponent, William Waldergrave.
With regard to Tony Blair, you have to remember that the war in Iraq was supported by the Conservative opposition and he is probably less popular in the Labour Party than by the Conservatives. Margaret Thatcher led the country into the Falklands war and came within a whisker of humiliation of losing the war and only saved face by the intervention of the USA in the Washington peace talks. We really did not have the ability to defend the Falklands then and we certainly don't now after years of Conservative austerity.
In answer to your two questions:
1. It doesn't matter whether or not the Labour Party is currently unelectable (which I agree), but in 2024 or whenever the next General election takes place. Hopefully, by then the Labour Party will have moved away from the disastrous Corbyn leadership and the dreams of a socialist nirvana and developed a clear policy direction acceptable to and understood by voters.
2. Governments tend to run in cycles and it is not just Labour Governments that are out of office for long periods after being in Government. Ask yourself why the Conservative Party was out of Government from 1964 to 1979 (with a short gap for the Heath Government 1970-1974) and from 1997 to 2010.
Going back to the Plato quote, maybe voters will see the incompetence and corruption of the current Conservative Government and decide to vote them out in 2024. If not, the British people will deserve to continue to live under the rule of fools.
An interesting topic guys. Cards on the table, I’ve been Tory pretty much all my voting life, though I don’t believe party politics change financial outcomes - just the way they deliver them! That’s an aside though, the main thing I wanted to say is that regardless of your politics, what we have been missing for some time is “a leader”.
Boris only made PM as other key Tories didn’t want to risk being tarred with the disaster that could’ve been Brexit, he was disposable but who knew the pandemic would happen! Before him, May, a remainer was dropped in for the same reason but didn’t last. Meanwhile, over the fence, Jeremy Corbyn seemed to spend time avoiding declaring party policy and also got in bed with Momentum thinking it would boost membership and his popularity. I don’t think I’ve ever known a more indecisive senior politician! Then enter Sir Kier Starmer. It’s cliched now but when he had such a great opportunity to lead, he offered hindsight. At least Jeremy Corbyn ‘looked Labour’, Sir Kier looks more Tory than most Tories!
OK, so much of this is tongue-in-cheek, but the truth is that we need leadership, and trusted leadership. The only person I see up to this in the next decade is Andy Burnham. As I started this post off, I vote Tory, but I would vote for Burnham regardless of his politics as he has made a good case for honesty, clarity and being for the people. I can respect that and I think many others would. Any thoughts?
It does appear that Andy Burnham has thrown his hat in the ring to be the next Labour leader, but that is unlikely before the next general election.
I agree that the current crop of politicians seem to have lost touch with the public. Who knows anyone in the Conservative Cabinet or the Shadow Cabinet these days? Boris Johnson is popular because he has crafted an image of a floundering joker, not quite on top of his brief, but somehow this bumbling image seems to resonate with the public. He has, however, been found out with his handling of the covid crisis and, in my view, will not lead the Conservatives into the next election. Gove anyone!!!!
As for Kier Starmer, I think he got off to a decent start and then his performances have tailed off. I think he was put into a difficult position in having to be seen to be trying to unite the party, but facing constant attacks from the left wing of the Party. He also had to be seen to supporting action by the Government in their response to covid, but also highlighting and criticising Government failures. I actually believe that he has been successful in highlighting Government failures, which has to be with hindsight, but the Conservatives have successfully labelled him Mr Hindsight for this.
He has been less successful in his response to the left wing of the Party and, particularly the Momentum Group. Like in the EC Referendum, the direction of Labour under his leadership is not clear. He is trying (and failing) to move the Party to the centre ground (where elections are won), but at the same time trying to placate the left wing activists in the Party. He needs to bring on board the likes of Hilary Benn and Yvette Cooper, whilst retaining the support of Angela Rayner and others to the left of the Party. It is a difficult tightrope to walk. He needs to show that the Labour Party is not run by a group of dreamers like modern day lotus eaters, but has a clear policy direction to make people's life safer and better by protecting the environment and employment rights; building confidence in the handling of the economy; building efficient public services and a fair social care system; and ensuring that those individuals and companies that earn most, pay their share of taxes.
So yes, I do see Andy Burnham as a potential future leader of the Labour Party, but I also think that Starmer should be given the opportunity to win his battle within the Labour Party and , if so, lead the Party into the next Election.
I actually believe that he has been successful in highlighting Government failures, which has to be with hindsight, but the Conservatives have successfully labelled him Mr Hindsight for this. He has been less successful in his response to the left wing of the Party and, particularly the Momentum Group. Like in the EC Referendum, the direction of Labour under his leadership is not clear. He is trying (and failing) to move the Party to the centre ground (where elections are won), but at the same time trying to placate the left wing activists in the Party. He needs to bring on board the likes of Hilary Benn and Yvette Cooper, whilst retaining the support of Angela Rayner and others to the left of the Party. It is a difficult tightrope to walk. He needs to show that the Labour Party is not run by a group of dreamers like modern day lotus eaters, but has a clear policy direction to make people’s life safer and better by protecting the environment and employment rights; building confidence in the handling of the economy; .
I think the 2 points highlighted show Labours biggest weakness.
They are so fragmented & have certain people/roles elected by different people or groups within, who all have different agendas so it's not coherent. This seemingly doesn't happen (Or certainly not anywhere near as much) in other parties.
Whilst there was a lot of talk about Momentum and them getting more people involved, IMO they almost single-handedly have done a lot more damage to the Labour party than anyone else.
Leading on to the 2nd point in that there are still so many people in the party that are like that. I don't like any of the political parties, but it seems like lots of people now think that a Tory vote/the Tory party is just "less bad" than Labour. That's the very sad state of politics in this country. There isn't even the need for that many policies, just points scoring.
Lastly I think because of the above, and societal change, I think most people know (& care) less about politics and policies than ever before, which is also very dangerous.
Came across this interesting quote that should be sent to everyone who can’t be bothered to vote: “If you do not take an interest in the affairs of your government, then you are doomed to live under the rule of fools.” Plato In response to Widneslatic, didn’t the UK lost the AAA rating twice under a Conservative Government in 2013 and again in 2016. It was a world banking crisis, but its origins came from the deregulation of the financial markets in the USA and UK in the 70s, supported by both Conservative and Labour Governments. At every opportunity, the Conservatives highlighted the size of the UK debt as a result of measures taken by Gordon Brown to recover from the impact of the banking crisis – a lead followed by other countries – but somehow don’t mention that in response to the current world crisis, the debt is even higher. Funny that. Growing up under the Thatcher Government may have done you no harm, but the deindustrialisation left many areas in the North and Midlands as manufacturing wastelands, the effects of which are still felt today. The community charge (or poll tax) was proposed as an alternative to rates as a way of funding local government, in a Green Paper based on the ideas from the Adam Smith Institute and its main proponent, William Waldergrave. With regard to Tony Blair, you have to remember that the war in Iraq was supported by the Conservative opposition and he is probably less popular in the Labour Party than by the Conservatives. Margaret Thatcher led the country into the Falklands war and came within a whisker of humiliation of losing the war and only saved face by the intervention of the USA in the Washington peace talks. We really did not have the ability to defend the Falklands then and we certainly don’t now after years of Conservative austerity. In answer to your two questions: 1. It doesn’t matter whether or not the Labour Party is currently unelectable (which I agree), but in 2024 or whenever the next General election takes place. Hopefully, by then the Labour Party will have moved away from the disastrous Corbyn leadership and the dreams of a socialist nirvana and developed a clear policy direction acceptable to and understood by voters. 2. Governments tend to run in cycles and it is not just Labour Governments that are out of office for long periods after being in Government. Ask yourself why the Conservative Party was out of Government from 1964 to 1979 (with a short gap for the Heath Government 1970-1974) and from 1997 to 2010. Going back to the Plato quote, maybe voters will see the incompetence and corruption of the current Conservative Government and decide to vote them out in 2024. If not, the British people will deserve to continue to live under the rule of fools.
And what makes you think Keith Stammer would do a better job...???
This is exactly why there is no common ground between the Left & the Right any more.
Picking sides is all well & good, but when the 2 sides can't work together in a time of National Crisis, then we got problems...
Remember... if you're not part of the solution, You're part of the problem...
An interesting topic guys. Cards on the table, I’ve been Tory pretty much all my voting life, though I don’t believe party politics change financial outcomes – just the way they deliver them! That’s an aside though, the main thing I wanted to say is that regardless of your politics, what we have been missing for some time is “a leader”. Boris only made PM as other key Tories didn’t want to risk being tarred with the disaster that could’ve been Brexit, he was disposable but who knew the pandemic would happen! Before him, May, a remainer was dropped in for the same reason but didn’t last. Meanwhile, over the fence, Jeremy Corbyn seemed to spend time avoiding declaring party policy and also got in bed with Momentum thinking it would boost membership and his popularity. I don’t think I’ve ever known a more indecisive senior politician! Then enter Sir Kier Starmer. It’s cliched now but when he had such a great opportunity to lead, he offered hindsight. At least Jeremy Corbyn ‘looked Labour’, Sir Kier looks more Tory than most Tories! OK, so much of this is tongue-in-cheek, but the truth is that we need leadership, and trusted leadership. The only person I see up to this in the next decade is Andy Burnham. As I started this post off, I vote Tory, but I would vote for Burnham regardless of his politics as he has made a good case for honesty, clarity and being for the people. I can respect that and I think many others would. Any thoughts?
Keith Stammer has the personality of a radish, and as for being a politician, he's dead in the water.
The moment he took the knee for a political terrorist organisation, he signed his own P45.
As for Burnham... He may have got in for a 2nd term as the Mayor of Greater Manchester with a landslide victory, but actually isn't that well liked any more in the Wigan & Leigh area.
His old seat in Leigh is now Blue, and maybe a long time before it turns Red again, if ever...
Keir Starmer has the beating of "Bumbling Boris" at PMQs and with a united Labour Party behind him and clear policies, has the confidence to lead the Labour Party to an election victory. Whether that happens, only time will tell.
Oh yes, who will lead the Conservatives in the next election. Probably not "Bumbling Boris" who will take the blame for the incompetent covid response and will want to make his millions, selling his memoirs of a failed leader and appearing on shows like "Have I Got News for You. A front runner will be the "dynamic" Michael Gove, the man with blood on his hands from back-stabbing his political colleagues, who has the permanent look of a startled fish.
Starmer "took the knee" in support of all those opposing anti-black racism. What is wrong with that unless, of course, you are a supporter of a right-wing racist group?
As for Andy Burnham, he could well be a future leader of the Labour Party, but would still need re-unite the Labour Party following the disastrous Corbyn leadership. My own view is that Keir Starmer should be given the chance to lead the Labour Party into the next election, possibly in a progressive left alliance with Liberal Democrats and Green Parties. This would give them a better opportunity of defeating the Conservative Party in 2024 (or possibly before, if the fixed-term Parliament Act is repealed).
The Conservatives won the previously safe Labour seat in Leigh by less than 2000 votes in the 2019 election, which was dominated by Brexit and the Corbyn leadership of the Labour Party, with many former Labour voters not voting or giving their vote temporarily to the Conservative and Brexit Parties - the Brexit Party polled over 3000 votes. I will predict now that Labour will re-take the Leigh seat at the next General election, if the Labour Party can get its act together behind a centre-left leadership.
In the Mayoral elections 2021, I think you will find that in the Wigan area, Andy Burnham polled over 37,000 votes more than the Conservative candidate. Leigh is part of the Wigan Metropolitan area. In the local elections in Leigh, there was a Labour landslide victory, with Labour Party candidates taking 19 of the 26 seats in the election.
Keir Starmer has the beating of “Bumbling Boris” at PMQs and with a united Labour Party behind him and clear policies, has the confidence to lead the Labour Party to an election victory. Whether that happens, only time will tell. Oh yes, who will lead the Conservatives in the next election. Probably not “Bumbling Boris” who will take the blame for the incompetent covid response and will want to make his millions, selling his memoirs of a failed leader and appearing on shows like “Have I Got News for You. A front runner will be the “dynamic” Michael Gove, the man with blood on his hands from back-stabbing his political colleagues, who has the permanent look of a startled fish. Starmer “took the knee” in support of all those opposing anti-black racism. What is wrong with that unless, of course, you are a supporter of a right-wing racist group? As for Andy Burnham, he could well be a future leader of the Labour Party, but would still need re-unite the Labour Party following the disastrous Corbyn leadership. My own view is that Keir Starmer should be given the chance to lead the Labour Party into the next election, possibly in a progressive left alliance with Liberal Democrats and Green Parties. This would give them a better opportunity of defeating the Conservative Party in 2024 (or possibly before, if the fixed-term Parliament Act is repealed). The Conservatives won the previously safe Labour seat in Leigh by less than 2000 votes in the 2019 election, which was dominated by Brexit and the Corbyn leadership of the Labour Party, with many former Labour voters not voting or giving their vote temporarily to the Conservative and Brexit Parties – the Brexit Party polled over 3000 votes. I will predict now that Labour will re-take the Leigh seat at the next General election, if the Labour Party can get its act together behind a centre-left leadership. In the Mayoral elections 2021, I think you will find that in the Wigan area, Andy Burnham polled over 37,000 votes more than the Conservative candidate. Leigh is part of the Wigan Metropolitan area. In the local elections in Leigh, there was a Labour landslide victory, with Labour Party candidates taking 19 of the 26 seats in the election.
I think you are looking at this through very rose tinted glasses Frank.
I just don't think Keir Starmer is a leader. His year as opposition leader has been very poor in a very difficult period to be an opposition leader. He hasn't started to turn it around. Neil Kinnock started to turn it around but it took John Smith and then Tony Blair to eventually win power. That took 14 years after Michael Foot and Foot was far better and less divisive than Corbyn.
I don't see Burnham as the answer he hasn't got the stature and was awful in his last leadership bid when subjected to national scrutiny.
The underlying currents are still going the way of the Tories in the North and Midlands outside of the big cities but starting to shift a little the other way down South. I can't see Labour winning at all without Scotland, the North and Midlands (outside big cities).
The Tories started with small majorities in seats like Mansfield but now have massive majorities. If you look underneath the hood in the local elections there were very big swings to the Tories in the likes of Warrington although not yet enough to win the local seats. That may come at subsequent elections. in Parliament they already have South Warrington and would have won North Warrington if not for the Brexit Party.
Batley and Spen by election is a big test for Starmer. It is due to demographics more winnable than Hartlepool. He will need to show some progress at some stage.