Promotion and Relegation

  • This topic has 19 replies, 10 voices, and was last updated 4 Oct 20 @ 6:14 pm by sandgroper.
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  • #4501
    Frankg
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    It is interesting, but not unexpected, that Tony Smith – Hull KR coach – is calling for relegation from SL to be scrapped on a permanent basis, as it “bankrupts clubs”. He also cites the NRL as the “best rugby league competition in the world” not having relegation. I wonder what his view would have been if HKR had been relegated this year? This is all about a few clubs getting their hands on the biggest share of the money from Sky. Would he have the same view of Sky pulled the plug and the clubs were having to survive on sponsorship and gate receipts?

    RFL/SL need to be honest and if the view is that SL will close the gate for promotion and make it a closed shop, so be it, but they then need to spell out clearly their vision for the wider game below SL. Will it just be feeder clubs or are they prepared to see the game wither and die completely outside the 12 chosen ones (or 4 chosen ones, if 4 French/European clubs and 4 NA teams are admitted to the glorious SL)? Will fans continue to support a club that is a permanent fixture in the bottom 4 of SL, losing games regularly? Will Sky want to televise games between top and bottom clubs where the result is not in question every week? If Widnes became a feeder club for St Helens or Salford a feeder club for Wigan, do they expect that the existing fans of those clubs will transfer their support? Most won’t in my view.

    Do Smith and others supporting an elitist international league, have any thought for the game, other than getting their hands on the Sky money? Are they bothered if the game dies outside SL?  If so, let them be honest and say so.

    The RFL needs to be honest with fans and be clear on their plans for RL outside the 12 clubs in SL. Maybe the time is for someone to take the decision out of the hands of people currently running the game and clubs outside SL go their own way. If it works, we will have a competitive competition. If it doesn’t then and the game dies, then at least people tried.

     

     

    #4507
    gpo1971
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    • South Stander
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    The Championship clubs (and below) should band together and breakaway from the RFL, form their own body and just let SL exist in their own world. I don’t find SL games any more interesting to watch than Championship games so let’s go back to basics with a formula that will work; part-time local teams with (mostly) local players. SL bores the pants off me these days, it’s all talk and no (or tedious) action.

    #4536
    CJ91
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    Tony Smith to be fair has been banging on about licensing for years.

    Used to watch SL religiously now watched maybe half of 2 games since the resumption.

    I wouldn’t watch Widnes if we were a feeder club and I suspect most would be the same, so non-SL plus maybe the lower SL Clubs will eventually end up in a PT Championship which will be fine.

    I read some while back that the amateur RU Clubs like LSH have set up their own localised Comp: whilst Championship is higher profile and much, much better attended, it presumably can be done to effectively set up your own Comp.

    #4539
    sandgroper
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    Wouldn’t have a problem with that. The way SL is going some minor SL clubs would need to decide where their bread is buttered because they will be up against NA and French clubs who would probably take no money out of the kitty.

    Looking at our history I wonder if the founders of RL saw this coming and decided that players had to work for their living and not live off the game alone?

    #4547
    sandgroper
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    Watching the TV games last night and we have the Leeds coaching bench occupied by the Fev coach of course. Just how much have Leeds invested in Fev?

    But, on the ‘breakaway’ subject, it would take a majority of the Championship CEO’s , twelve at least, to be in agreement and to be prepared to go public. Not an easy decision as it could risk your club and yourself as an identity in the game. I have no doubt that it could succeed and the less money we get out of the SL deal the more attractive it becomes. Almost like ‘1895 Mk 2’ .

    Re-apply the original rule that RL is a part time sport, not a ‘professional’.

    The longer the RFL/SL havering on the future of the SL goes on the more the break becomes likely.

    Looking back at those early days the Founders were probably aware that the gentry could ‘buy’ a team and play in the breakaway game, and wrote the laws to prevent it.

    Funnily enough while SL broke that law, the RU broke their law openly and paid players after years of thinly veiled amateurism.

    #4561
    CJ91
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    The Featherstone thing is very Australianised with Fev verging on Feeder Club status, which is the line in the sand for me over Widnes, if we did that with Saints or even worse Wire, I wouldn’t watch any more.

    The bottom line for me is that there was far less wrong with the sport in 2005/06 than there is now, simple structure, better standard of team. Catalan coming in with a three year exemption but keeping P/R was fine, even though it was detrimental to us.

    Since then, it has been licensing, Middle 8s and now this structure, an influx of expansion teams and gimmick after gimmick after gimmick.

    Sport generally has moved in a far more global, big brand, corporate way since: see the IPL, the Hundred, the NFL, Premier League, RU European Cup and Super Rugby. RL has tried to go that way but has fundamentally not grasped the fact that the basis and strength of RL is its sense of community and parochialism. This problem is made worse by numerous attack dogs in the RL media who criticise anyone who dares to question expansion.

     

    #4562
    Griffin1
    • Posts: 34
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    In principal, I fully agree with licencing, but only the RFL, can set the rules of licencing and then totally ignore their own stipulations and pick the club’s they want.

    #4569
    sandgroper
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    Franchising was the baby of Mr Lewis who, despite our treatment by him, was the last RFL/SL boss who remotely had a plan and recognised the need for planning. He was a nitpicker and a pain maybe but O’Connor managed to track our way to SL through him.

    Once he had gone pandemonium reigned with shambolic attempts to appease the Yorkies. Lewis’s promise to check that clubs were solvent etc went by the board and look where we ended up!

    P/R is really marking time until somebody has the wit and courage to set out just where the game is going. Despite the healthy salaries of our managers there is little to look at regarding where the game is headed, let alone enough for clubs to try to plan ahead.

    #4660
    Magnus
    • Posts: 2
    • New signing

    Not convinced that RL can really support P/L going forward to be honest.

    I think the licencing worked well, allowed for a period of stability and offered hope to the clubs in championship.

    The middle 8’s I always found a strange concept.

     

    #4664
    DI Keith Fowler
    • Posts: 60
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    Franchising was the baby of Mr Lewis who, despite our treatment by him, was the last RFL/SL boss who remotely had a plan and recognised the need for planning. He was a nitpicker and a pain maybe but O’Connor managed to track our way to SL through him. Once he had gone pandemonium reigned with shambolic attempts to appease the Yorkies. Lewis’s promise to check that clubs were solvent etc went by the board and look where we ended up! P/R is really marking time until somebody has the wit and courage to set out just where the game is going. Despite the healthy salaries of our managers there is little to look at regarding where the game is headed, let alone enough for clubs to try to plan ahead.

    I would say the game has certainly been going backwards since Richard Lewis left, whatever people thought of him.

    FWIW licensing if it had been applied properly I wouldn’t have minded. It would have forced clubs with subpar grounds to improve, clubs without youth systems to get academies, and those with poor attendances to do a bit of marketing (what a thought).

    Unfortunately it ended up maintaining the status quo, we jumped through all the hoops then the system changed once we got in.

    #4666
    Spelly
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    I said at the time “Licensing isn’t perfect, but it’s less imperfect than the alternatives.”

    “Automatic” promotion and relegation, with the changing from PT to FT football,  was never easy, but I’m sure these days, the likes of Fev, and  Leythers would argue that finishing top, should mean you dine at the top table the following season.

    Is the parachute payment for the relegated side, fair on the other teams in the Championship? I always argued it was reward for failure!

    If Toulouse were in the game’s premier competition, would it improve the game in general across La Manche?

    So what is the answer? I can only say “Pass!”

    If licensing had stayed, would Cas and Wakey still be playing at grounds that are past their sell by date? I think the answer is probably.

    There’s been no P and R in the NRL forever, and they don’t seem to be doing too bad over there, do they? If they’d had relegation this year, we’d have been waving goodbye to the Broncos!

    I honestly don’t know what the solution is, coz in my opinion, there’s not a totally fair one, that’d satisfy one and all.

    Stay safe everyone.

    Spelly.

     

    " ---- and then on the eighth day, God created Rugby League."

    #4672
    DI Keith Fowler
    • Posts: 60
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    I said at the time “Licensing isn’t perfect, but it’s less imperfect than the alternatives.” “Automatic” promotion and relegation, with the changing from PT to FT football, was never easy, but I’m sure these days, the likes of Fev, and Leythers would argue that finishing top, should mean you dine at the top table the following season. Is the parachute payment for the relegated side, fair on the other teams in the Championship? I always argued it was reward for failure! If Toulouse were in the game’s premier competition, would it improve the game in general across La Manche? So what is the answer? I can only say “Pass!” If licensing had stayed, would Cas and Wakey still be playing at grounds that are past their sell by date? I think the answer is probably. There’s been no P and R in the NRL forever, and they don’t seem to be doing too bad over there, do they? If they’d had relegation this year, we’d have been waving goodbye to the Broncos! I honestly don’t know what the solution is, coz in my opinion, there’s not a totally fair one, that’d satisfy one and all. Stay safe everyone. Spelly.

    I think there’s room for P&R in the game but you would have to ensure that the gap between the top of the 2nd division to the 1st was as small as possible. Which would mean a more equitable sharing of funds.

    If I were playing fantasy rugby league, I would go for 2 top divisions, SL1 and SL2 with 10 teams in each, all full time teams. 1 relegated and 1 promoted each season. Would likely end up looking like:

    SL1

    1. Leeds
    2. Wigan
    3. Saints
    4. Warrington
    5. Catalans
    6. Hull FC
    7. Castleford
    8. Huddersfield
    9. Wakefield
    10. Salford

    SL2

    1. Tolouse
    2. Leigh
    3. Featherstone
    4. Widnes
    5. Bradford
    6. London
    7. Toronto (relegated from SL1 for pulling out)
    8. Ottowa (may as well just promote them)
    9. Newcastle (implied they could run a FT team and take a place in SL)
    10. Dewsbury/Halifax/Swinton (Spelly!)

    Then a national league below that with franchise applications to the above. No relegation to the national league through on the pitch performance.

    Make up the fixture list with either, 9 additional games per season between SL1 and SL2 teams, opponent/home/away based on league standing previous year. Or a return to regional cups, Lancashire, Yorkshire and then AN Other basically to capture Cumbria, the South, France and Canada.

    Of course where the money for all this would come from I have absolutely no idea. Maybe the proposed private equity could fund the first few years, until the system begins to generate larger income. I think in a league system like this SL2 attendances would likely increase, as would the profile of the competition which could bring an expanded TV deal either here or abroad, sponsorship etc. Someone who knows what they’re talking about can do the maths to see if it’s a worthwhile gamble.

    #4673
    DI Keith Fowler
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    Hull KR for spot number 10 in SL2, but could be any of Salford, Hudds, Wakefield.

    #4678
    Torn Sock 1
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    Hull KR for spot number 10 in SL2, but could be any of Salford, Hudds, Wakefield.

     

    Think 1 way or another they should be in 1 of the 2 leagues though 😀 The OP forgotten about them?

    #4680
    DI Keith Fowler
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    Hull KR for spot number 10 in SL2, but could be any of Salford, Hudds, Wakefield.

    Think 1 way or another they should be in 1 of the 2 leagues though 😀 The OP forgotten about them?

    Yeah realised I’d missed them out, tried to edit the post but it won’t let me.

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