@mick-george I know Mick. My point is that people who think we are under achieving either don’t understand or just can’t accept where we are as a club.
@mick-george I know Mick. My point is that people who think we are under achieving either don’t understand or just can’t accept where we are as a club.
Oh dear
we only need 5/6000 capacity stadium same as York’s
I get your thought process, however that would be saying goodbye to any ambition of playing in the Super League ever again. It wouldn't be enough to get Wire/Saints/Wigan crowds in, which would be vital to our revenue stream. Also, I don't believe it would be acceptable by SL - it's way below the minimum capacity criteria.
We must never 'settle' and accept we are a Championship club. Ever. That would be the end for the club if that happened. We are bigger than half of the SL clubs in terms of our achievements, and that musn't be allowed to be swept under the carpet. We were a decent SL club for a couple of years not long ago (before the reality of the O'C's and JR kicked in) and there's absolutely no reason why we couldn't be again if we were run properly and gained a bit of decent investment.
Toulouse, Wakefield, Salford, Castleford, are we saying we are not capable of matching or bettering these, just 4 of the clubs in SL ?
Look at our "rivals" in this division, for example Featherstone, a tiny town sandwiched between Super League clubs that has constantly produced class teams that are always there or thereabouts and have redeveloped their ground with a population of less than 16,000
Dont try to say we are where we belong so get used to it, we are where we are because we have been run like a shitshow for decades, making excuses for failure time and time again whilst ignoring the elephant in the room of clubs with less resources than we have had and squandered constantly outperforming us
After years of mediocrity,lousy performances and results,all of a sudden we are not under achieving.I give up.May as well drop down to third division and be mediocre there as well.
Can you not be underachieving because you are not very good?
In the sense that there is no reason given Season Ticket/Fanbase etc we can't do better than we are or be in the top 5 of this league, but we are currently failing to meet that through bad choices?
Can you not be underachieving because you are not very good?
In the sense that there is no reason given Season Ticket/Fanbase etc we can't do better than we are or be in the top 5 of this league, but we are currently failing to meet that through bad choices?
I think you are on the right track CJ but it’s a bit of ‘the chicken and the egg’ isn’t it ?
We don’t achieve because we aren’t very good and the less we achieve (or under achieve) the worse we get, in terms of the drop off in interest of potential money paying spectators and also in terms of the calibre of staff and players we can attract to the club.
The last time the club was run in any decent way was literally about 50 years ago in the early 70’s when someone had the miraculous idea of appointing Vinty coach and, by coincidence, we has a crop of local young talent who all came through the junior ranks together. Vinty was light years ahead of (British) coaching at the time and the young lads were semi-pro and played because they liked (and were very good at) the game, rather than as a stepping stone for greater financial reward somewhere else. There were other factors but Vinty and the emergence of the youngsters was the primary reason we were in good shape.
ironically, we blew our big chance by being financially reckless when we put together the great squad of the 80’s. Doug was a great man manager, a magnificent instinct for how the game should be played and a fantastic eye for talent. The thing was he didn’t bother his head about finance which wouldn’t have been quite so bad if someone, anyone, on the Committee at the time understood finance. Sadly they didn’t
Those around, back in the day, were the luckiest Widnes fans ever to have lived. We saw not only the best Widnes team ever, but possibly the best ever club side to play the game.
The club, however, couldn’t pay the bill. It might not have been so bad if the game had stayed amateur / semi-pro - we might not have been able to sustain the level we were at but we could still have operated as we had always done in the semi-pro set up. The trouble was the game changed and but it geared up for going professional and we didn’t have the money to stay at the same semi-pro level, let alone to fund an efficient professional business.
We didn’t have the funds and we didn’t have the expertise.
It didn’t help that one of the movers for the professional game had it in for us as we had beaten his team at Wembley when he was touting them as world beaters and the future of the game. Those around back in the day will know who I’m talking about.
The upshot is that for the past 30 years we have been playing catch-up and, to be fair, a couple of times things have looked promising, but the game is now geared to protect a few local sides and an increasing number of expansion (read financially viable foreign) clubs.
The truth of the matter is that in terms of playing in Super League we are on a downward spiral.
If we prioritise trying to get promoted into SL we will go out of business.
On the other hand if we prioritise planning on how we can consolidate what (little) we have and focus on playing the game, rather than winning promotion I think we might all be pleasantly surprised and happy (or at least happier ) with where we can get to and what we can achieve.
We're not viable candidates for SL; either getting there or staying there. We just don't have the revenue stream and, to remind people what this thread is about, we're about to lose more previously guaranteed revenue, probably a lot of it. That's with the current league set-up. Add into the mix that a set of management consultants is about to determine the direction of RL for years to come, IMO, I can't see Widnes figuring in that conversation.
We are underachieving, I agree with that sentiment. We're underachieving in that we should be about 3rd or 4th in the Championship. We're not underachieving in that we should be in SL, no chance.
Someone needs to explain why they think we are underachieving ?
If someone underachieves that means we have set target too high, which most on here have for years.
We have actually been underperforming as that is down to the players.
Underachieving is not reaching your target.
Underperforming is not reaching your potential it may sound the same but it is totally different.
It didn’t help that one of the movers for the professional game had it in for us as we had beaten his team at Wembley when he was touting them as world beaters and the future of the game. Those around back in the day will know who I’m talking about.
Just say the name, Maurice Lindsay. I disagree RV, It's paranoia.He didn't have it in for us at all. Widnes brought about their own down fall as you mentioned.The over spending and trying to compete with Wigan but with only half of their gate income.
@mick-george I know Mick. My point is that people who think we are under achieving either don’t understand or just can’t accept where we are as a club.
The excuses don't stack up though - we shouldn't be getting routinely turned over by teams like Sheffield, Batley (with all due respect to them); or at least if we are, the excuses shouldn't be "we haven't got enough money, we haven't got enough support, we haven't got the facilities" because we've got a lot more of those things than those clubs.
You can't look at what Widnes RLFC has got and not expect to be at least competing for the play-off places in the second division. We're not even half way through the league season and it's already looking like we're one or two defeats away from it being over. Five points off the play-offs.
People say we're a mile off Super League - which might be the case now. But if you swapped our central funding with Wakefield/Salford/Toulouse whoever, we could be just as competitive as them (as we were previously).
Too young to remember the early 90s, but in my lifetime Widnes have had what, three seasons in the second tier where they've really been competing at the top (2001 and then 2006/07 when ultimately we were one of two full-time teams and lost GF both years). We were competitive in SL 2002-04 and 2013-16.
If the club doesn't have aspirations of competing at the top end of Championship and maybe one day returning to SL, then what's the point?
@jdgsport We shall just have to disagree I’m afraid.
Genuine question, what are you basing our entitlement on ? Why do you think we should be challenging for a play-off spot ? Is it our form this season ? Or last season ? Or the season before ? Is it on the revenue we are attracting through the ever so slowly dwindling spectator base ? Is it the quality of coaching or the operational / financial / marketing management ver the past 5 or 6 (or 50) years ?
The idea that “we are Widnes’ doesn’t carry the weight that some of the fans imagine it should (or does). We have slipped this season from being an average team in a poor second tier competition to being a below average team in a poor competition. Not all the problems are of our own making but we have to acknowledge what we are before we can come up with a plan of what we want to do.
Anyway, like I say I think we will just have to disagree on this one.
@jdgsport We shall just have to disagree I’m afraid.
Genuine question, what are you basing our entitlement on ? Why do you think we should be challenging for a play-off spot ? Is it our form this season ? Or last season ? Or the season before ? Is it on the revenue we are attracting through the ever so slowly dwindling spectator base ? Is it the quality of coaching or the operational / financial / marketing management ver the past 5 or 6 (or 50) years ?
The idea that “we are Widnes’ doesn’t carry the weight that some of the fans imagine it should (or does). We have slipped this season from being an average team in a poor second tier competition to being a below average team in a poor competition. Not all the problems are of our own making but we have to acknowledge what we are before we can come up with a plan of what we want to do.
Anyway, like I say I think we will just have to disagree on this one.
It's not about "we are Widnes". The name or the club is irrelevant. To anyone 30 or under, Widnes aren't a big club. It's only those that hold on to the past who think that.
Let's forget the name of the club - if there was a club who was in the top 3 attendances, fanbase size, stadium facilities, sizeable fan contributions, close to 3 big clubs for loans/young players - wouldn't you expect them to be challenging for the play-offs?
It seems to me Widnes can't decide whether it wants to permanently feel sorry for itself and have a victim mentality; or whether it wants to pretend its a big club based on the past. When the reality is, they need to find something in the middle. I don't think it's a particularly outlandish stance for Widnes to believe they should be a play-off Championship team.
I think that your argument about the name of the team should be true but it isn’t. Reading through this forum and it’s predecessors for years strongly indicates that there is a strong sense of entitlement.
I would agree with you that the club needs to decide what it wants to be - that is what I have been saying, on and off for the past three years. But, as I was referring to in my last but one post - for years and years, we haven’t had any one group capable of making the types of decisions we are talking about, let alone put a plan in place to achieve the selected outcome.
I understand the desire for us to be ‘better’ and I understand the frustration but with the personnel we have at the helm at the moment I don’t see a way to make the necessary decisions and put corrective actions in place.
@mick-george I know Mick. My point is that people who think we are under achieving either don’t understand or just can’t accept where we are as a club.
The excuses don't stack up though - we shouldn't be getting routinely turned over by teams like Sheffield, Batley (with all due respect to them); or at least if we are, the excuses shouldn't be "we haven't got enough money, we haven't got enough support, we haven't got the facilities" because we've got a lot more of those things than those clubs.
You can't look at what Widnes RLFC has got and not expect to be at least competing for the play-off places in the second division. We're not even half way through the league season and it's already looking like we're one or two defeats away from it being over. Five points off the play-offs.
People say we're a mile off Super League - which might be the case now. But if you swapped our central funding with Wakefield/Salford/Toulouse whoever, we could be just as competitive as them (as we were previously).
Too young to remember the early 90s, but in my lifetime Widnes have had what, three seasons in the second tier where they've really been competing at the top (2001 and then 2006/07 when ultimately we were one of two full-time teams and lost GF both years). We were competitive in SL 2002-04 and 2013-16.
If the club doesn't have aspirations of competing at the top end of Championship and maybe one day returning to SL, then what's the point?
Absolutely spot on, some of the stuff spouted on here is mind blowing.