And the inferior complex of the 2 posts above are probably why the game struggles to move on. We've happily taken the Sky money over the years and without it may not have a club anymore.
Times change, sport is a business now and unless you get a rich backer with open cheque books you need to run it like a business. Rule was the exception to the rule, he messed up at Hull and made a mockery of Widnes, we all agree there but there aren't too many like him. Plenty of good owners in the game that work wonders on a shoestring, Michal Carter at Wakefield for example is a great owner, there's plenty more.
The problem with having a spokesperson for the game outside SL (what's stopping us?) is that the Championship in particular is so vast in terms of budgets, crowd etc. their goals are so different. Beaumont coming out last week saying we must find a way to start the league again is a perfect example of this, try telling Swinton and Oldham to play with no gate receipts.
Clubs (and fans) need to stop passing the buck to the RFL/SL/Sky etc and take their own marketing and promoting into their own hands. Anyone remember Cougermania in the 90's? Keighley went from a few hundred to nearly 6,000 every home game, people sat up and took notice - this is how the game moves forward not sitting around waiting for apparent men in suits to do it for us.
A lot of the above comes down to simple supply and demand. Would even hardcore fans tune into League 1 games if they were shown on TV?! Maybe watch one out of every 5/6, but that's it, the demand isn't there.
Clubs need to take it upon themselves to fill the stands just like Keighley did 25 years ago (crickey is it that long?!) and the game grows. Warrington are leading the way with this but people need to come up with their own ideas for the game to move forward.
If as some have said, it’s not worth the BBC the expense of sending a crew to televise a championship match, why do they do it for a challenge cup game with a league 1 side playing an amateur side, that they only put out on the red button?
Surely that would attract a lot smaller audience than 2 Championship clubs playing each other and put out on BBC 2.
.[/quote I don’t think it is about the quality of the games in the Championship, compared to the SL. I have enjoyed watching more Widnes games since we were relegated than the last two years in SL; and the SL games are not the exciting spectacle that Sky commentators like to promote. They are often ponderous and predictable games, with little to get excited about. I think that SL is only interested in promoting SL itself, with no interest in the wider game. It has attached itself like a leech to the traditional game of RL and is sucking the lifeblood out of the game. It has become a business,which attracts people like Rule, who see it as an opportunity to make money. With Sky, it is as if the game does not exist outside SL. Any part of the game below SL hardly gets a mention. It is as though the aim is to kill off the game at local level – and that will eventually include the likes of Warrington, Wigan and St Helens – to move towards the misguided dream of a big city international game. Perhaps they hope that in the future Swinton and Salford fans will gravitate to a “Manchester ” team based in Wigan. I don’t know what the viewing figures are for SL on Sky or what viewing figures the BBC would need to justify televising Championship/League 1 games – they actually televised amateur games in the past. The RFL have obtained support for the game of RL based entirely on it being a community based sport, the opposite of what SL is promoting. I still believe that using this goodwill to promoting local communities, there is an opportunity for the game to be promoted below the fanatsy world of SL. It annoys me when comments are made on the signing of Inglis being good for SL – why not good for RL. I would hope that the RFL see a future for the game below the pretentiously titled SL and start promoting the wider game and not just the interests of 12 clubs. I am sure we could offer a better attraction for BBC than tiddley winks.
This wasn't a SL/Championship debate and which you enjoy watching more. This was a what is marketable point I was making, and Champ/Champ 1 is a very, very small market indeed with next to zero commercial attraction. Most of your points (Bar the last 1) are very valid and I agree with them, but that's a whole separate argument.
The tiddlywinks was slightly tongue in cheek, but for a non RL fan seriously who would want to watch any 2 teams out of either league?
The Aussies however won't really give 2 hoots about any International league, as 1 the standard will still be miles higher there (Oz), 2 more money in NRL and 3 more coverage.
If as some have said, it’s not worth the BBC the expense of sending a crew to televise a championship match, why do they do it for a challenge cup game with a league 1 side playing an amateur side, that they only put out on the red button? Surely that would attract a lot smaller audience than 2 Championship clubs playing each other and put out on BBC 2.
So one camera crew and JJB/A.N. other is a good marketable product? . They could do that, as it's not going to cost much, but it won't attract (m)any new viewers or get £ from BBC for a TV deal. I've watched them and they're not bad, but I'm already a fan. If you think that the CC matches are a marketable product then that's where this discussion ends.
If they sent 1 camera crew to a 12th division football game, a minor counties cricket match, a county medal golf match, or any equivalent setting from any other sport would BBC get many viewers/would you watch? No.
RL Fans don't get/like/accept the sad fact that unfortunately we are a niche sport. Say they agreed a TV deal with BBC for the 25 clubs in C/C1. How much would you expect them to pay for it? If they got £250k a year (They wouldn't get anything like that) then that would be 10k each which would help a bit but isn't going to pull up many trees financially.
And the inferior complex of the 2 posts above are probably why the game struggles to move on. We’ve happily taken the Sky money over the years and without it may not have a club anymore. Times change, sport is a business now and unless you get a rich backer with open cheque books you need to run it like a business. Rule was the exception to the rule, he messed up at Hull and made a mockery of Widnes, we all agree there but there aren’t too many like him. Plenty of good owners in the game that work wonders on a shoestring, Michal Carter at Wakefield for example is a great owner, there’s plenty more. The problem with having a spokesperson for the game outside SL (what’s stopping us?) is that the Championship in particular is so vast in terms of budgets, crowd etc. their goals are so different. Beaumont coming out last week saying we must find a way to start the league again is a perfect example of this, try telling Swinton and Oldham to play with no gate receipts. Clubs (and fans) need to stop passing the buck to the RFL/SL/Sky etc and take their own marketing and promoting into their own hands. Anyone remember Cougermania in the 90’s? Keighley went from a few hundred to nearly 6,000 every home game, people sat up and took notice – this is how the game moves forward not sitting around waiting for apparent men in suits to do it for us. A lot of the above comes down to simple supply and demand. Would even hardcore fans tune into League 1 games if they were shown on TV?! Maybe watch one out of every 5/6, but that’s it, the demand isn’t there. Clubs need to take it upon themselves to fill the stands just like Keighley did 25 years ago (crickey is it that long?!) and the game grows. Warrington are leading the way with this but people need to come up with their own ideas for the game to move forward.
I don't agree that anything I said was out of any feeling of inferiority about Widnes. It is more to about anger at seeing the sport decimated to fit the ambitions of a few business people promoting, in my view, a misguided view of the future of the game. I think Widnes fans have shown a brilliant example of promoting their team through the support they have shown to the team following the club being ripped apart by financial mismanagement. Viqi is another example of supporters getting behind their club.
I think if you looked at the example of Keighley in the early 90s , they brought in a new Board who re-branded the club after a disastrous period both on and off the pitch. They invested in players, brought in an international coach and renovated the ground. This brought some success and spectators came back. It was only the disappointment of being excluded from new SL in 1995/96 that the club went backwards.
The lead needs to come from RFL in promoting the game - that is RL not SL - as a whole and not just 12 clubs in SL, which anyway will eventually move on to a franchise basis with any local community links eventually disappearing, or simply collapse when Sky pull the plug.
Clubs will always rely on several income streams, including gate receipts, sponsorship (whether on a wider base from local business and/or a local businessman prepared to subsidise the club) and income from broadcast rights. Do you think that the likes of Moran and Carter take a long term view on their investment? Do you think that these business people who prepared to subsidise their club's losses, don't look on SL as a business investment to reduce their losses? I wonder what view the likes of Carter, Hudgell and Beaumont etc will have when they realise that their clubs have no future in SL.
Yes we took the Sky money, but why not? The fact that it was wasted is another matter and money went into the pockets of a few individuals rather than investing in the team.
My view is that SL has divided the game, without improving it in any way. The only way forward is by RL coming together and not pursuing the big city dream, which will benefit only a few clubs (and certainly not all of the existing 12 clubs). If you had two competitive leagues, with a reasonable salary cap to prevent a club buying short-term success, and an opportunity for smaller clubs able to compete on a "level playing field" with the bigger clubs, the game will progress and spectators will come back to the game.
The problem with the BBC is that they seem unable do do anything on a limited budget, so they would probably cite cost as a factor. For example, they took over four hundred staff to Glastonbury last time.
Though it would be nice to have a video ref etc and every angle covered, I am sure they could offer a good package without all the bells and whistles.
As has been mentioned earlier, the lower leagues need people dedicated to marketing and selling that product and more terrestrial coverage might even bring new fans to the game.
The problem surely must be that there is no 'plan' for anything atm. Unless, that is, you see SL taking on board more overseas clubs (potentially TWP plus N York, plus the existing two from France) which reduces the UK faction to 8 teams at the so-called senior level. Best to ignore the East Europeans atm. On this tack the SL is just running a game show for Sky.
That is not planning it is just 'wait and see'. Seemingly anyone with cash to put a team up is acceptable so long as they leave the Sky funds to be shared out between the reducing number of UK teams.
Even if things stay as they are and Championship/League 1 game is allowed to die on its own terms where are the young players to come from? The SL are not self-sufficient in producing new players. Without the lower leagues in some form the game will die, from its roots upwards.
On a side track, how many times has the Wire stadium been full to capacity since its first sell-out against a Championship Widnes side?
The other option would be for the SL teams to expand their realm, as in Aus where I understand that the second tier clubs are financed and attached to the NRL teams, and staffed as totally self-sufficient. But that would demand even more funding from the senior club.
On that basis we would be moving to Maurice Lindsay's vision of merged clubs. That scenario has already been mooted and scrapped. As a Widnes supporter I simply wouldn't be interested in supporting Wire, and I suspect that many others feel the same.
The problem surely must be that there is no ‘plan’ for anything atm. Unless, that is, you see SL taking on board more overseas clubs (potentially TWP plus N York, plus the existing two from France) which reduces the UK faction to 8 teams at the so-called senior level. Best to ignore the East Europeans atm. On this tack the SL is just running a game show for Sky. That is not planning it is just ‘wait and see’. Seemingly anyone with cash to put a team up is acceptable so long as they leave the Sky funds to be shared out between the reducing number of UK teams. Even if things stay as they are and Championship/League 1 game is allowed to die on its own terms where are the young players to come from? The SL are not self-sufficient in producing new players. Without the lower leagues in some form the game will die, from its roots upwards. On a side track, how many times has the Wire stadium been full to capacity since its first sell-out against a Championship Widnes side? The other option would be for the SL teams to expand their realm, as in Aus where I understand that the second tier clubs are financed and attached to the NRL teams, and staffed as totally self-sufficient. But that would demand even more funding from the senior club. On that basis we would be moving to Maurice Lindsay’s vision of merged clubs. That scenario has already been mooted and scrapped. As a Widnes supporter I simply wouldn’t be interested in supporting Wire, and I suspect that many others feel the same.
I entirely agree that this idea to merge clubs to form "big city" clubs is based on sand. A Merseyside club based in the city at the expense of St Helens/Widnes/Warrington assumes that this new club will attract interest from the soccer loving city. I worked on Merseyside for a few years and believe me, there is little or no interest in RL. St Helens. Widnes and Warrington fans support their local teams and will not, in my view, follow a club outside their area. Similarly, will a Manchester based team subsuming Wigan/Leigh/Salford/Rochdale /Swinton/Oldham get a following in the city or the supporters of the local clubs? I think not.
It has been mentioned that Championship/League 1 games simply do not have any commercial attraction. With an effort made to promote the games, surely a Widnes v Bradford or a London v Toulouse or a Leigh v Featherstone or Swinton v Oldham or Sheffield v York could offer a reasonable alternative to some of the SL games at less cost.
I would suggest that there is little difference in quality between the bottom half of SL and the top half of the Championship - any difference down to the funding available to the clubs and being full-time or part-time. I believe that reverting to Premiership comprising 16 clubs and a 2nd Division comprising 14 clubs with funding more fairly distributed would improve the quality of the game and attract commercial investment. There could still be a third tier level to promote expansion in the UK.
I would suggest that the 16 Premiership should contain UK teams only. There are already moves afoot to rebuild a French RL competition and there could easily be an inter continental trophy a la WCC. That would bolster the game in France and also give us some 'international' competition on our doorstep. If Americans/Canadians want to form even a small league we should surely be able to help with coaching and or players as required. Their entry into the international set up would help of course.
Regarding the merger logic Saints fans wouldn't even come down the by-pass to watch their own team's home games while their stadium was under construction!
There are options to develop and protect our game but they need real thought with some intelligent advance looks at the 'what if' scenarios so that if options crop up there are already plans in the drawer.
The trial of non-contested scrums in RU will, I believe, become their law and will drastically change their game over time. Prop forwards won't need to be static lumps and their second rows will become better ball handlers. The game will become more open to RL tactics etc. They have enough ex-RL coaches to cash in I'm sure.
But, more to the point, the attraction to young rugby players with handling skills will be bigger and better paid than RL and will drain our talent pool very quickly if we aren't prepared with a more attractive package.
I am 100% with Frankg on this one.
I agree that there is no difference bar Sky money between lower SL Clubs and Bigger Championship Clubs.
SL Clubs will not want to give up any TV Money, especially now. The fact that some clubs wanted the salary cap lowered suggests that some will be quite a way short of it, I can see them being eased out of SL, either through relegation or licensing.
Whatever the answer is, it most certainly is not making semi-pro teams with sub 1000 crowds go to Ottawa to get 50 put on them....
It certainly doesn't help Chamionship clubs to rebuild their fan base to use that league as a ladder for super- financed incomers to cut their teeth on. If they come into the UK game they should obey the same financial rules.
Latest is that one working party says there is a possibility of a reduced Championship season starting late August.
We will see..
I am not sure how to add a link, but Derek Beaumont's lengthy comments in total RL dated 7th June, make interesting reading regarding the season re-start.
The two which were my personal favourites were the automatic promotion of the four full time championship teams (Leigh of course included ) and the comment on furlough. My understanding was that furlough was brought in to help employees stay in employment and look after their obligations. Now, I may be wrong, but it seems to me that Beaumont is suggesting that clubs use furlough money to pay for weekly Covid 19 testing. I may be doing him an injustice and there may be a provision for this, but I have not heard it mentioned before.
I fully appreciate that owners and directors want to try and ensure the survival of their clubs, but it would be nice to think that they would work together to try and ensure a system was found under which all clubs made it to the other side.
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Of course you have to take into account that Beaumont sees himself as a member of the McManus/Leneghan group and, to be honest he has ploughed a great deal of filthy lucre into the Leigh pot.
The critical question for us is just how clubs will continue to be financed into the future.
As a club we have been rescued from extinction by a few supporters who were willing to put up what, to Beaumont & Co, would be seen as petty cash. The supporters on a wider front responded and threw into the Viqi pot etc and the rest is history. Just how long we can rely on that sort of loyalty and how far that will carry the club is an unknown as yet. The return to 'normality' may give us a clue as will the season ticket sales. I hope that we can rise to the occasion and show the RFL that community clubs are sustainable.
What has to happen however is that the RFL and the SL realise that if the game as we know it needs to encompass all, not just the privately financed. I suppose that what I am saying is that the game has to realise that together we stand, divided we fall.
There are many clubs below SL sailing so close to the financial wind that their survival is threatened every year and there is obviously a limit to how far the game's cash will stretch. There may be a need for the RFL to take a more direct role in 'selling' the game in its heartland and improving the crowd support within the M62 corridor. Simply relying on the historical '****** is a rugby town' is not good enough and maybe clubs aren't selling the game as they should (ourselves included?), but a more professional approach may result in a better response.
At the opposite end of the spectrum the SL clubs need to realise that the game is bigger than the top ten (atm) English clubs. Let's face it the scattered supporters of the non-SL clubs form a good proportion of the Sky subscribers and without them the Sky contract would bite the dust!