Id say it’s a combination of money, status and also security, signing for Saints you have a full time contract, whereas at Widnes, there’s always financial uncertainty. Not naming names, but there’s two prominent Widnes lads playing for SL clubs who turned downWidnes, interestingly enough they were rarely attending Widnes games growing up hence the no connection to play for the club.
With you regarding money - which is the point that I was trying to make in previous posts Spike. We need to keep the subs up and be careful with where we spend it! That financial support would make a massive difference to the club, it something that we have never really had long term. For some reason we don't seem to be attractive to millionaires!!! If we can keep the faith and increase it we should be ready when the RFL comes back down to earth.
As a Widnes fan, for Widnes to flourish (or at least have a chance to flourish) the people who run the game itself need to decide what the game is to be : a worldwide sport with feeder leagues in different countries, a semi-professional game with part-time players, an amateur game with players getting match day expenses, or something completely different, or maybe a combination of things, perhaps including some of those I’ve mentioned. As part of deciding, the decision makers also need to look at a proper structure for the sustainability of the game – finance, grass roots management, sustainability, short, medium, long term growth. If we can reach that point – an actual blueprint for the future of a sustainable game, then we can discuss what fans of Widnes can do for Widnes to be part of the proper plan.
I cannot fathom why this “international expansion” narrative continues to resonate. Back in 2017 when Toronto first entered the league, I always thought it wouldn’t last and I thought that once Toronto inevitably collapses then the “expansion dream” would be dead.
Yet again another expansion teams falls to their death just like PSG, Gateshead, Crusaders etc but this time the rhetoric within RL is that SL is still going to become a world league.
Do these people understand how utterly deluded they sound, Ottawa and NY, will go the same way as the other teams and the RFL would have spent 10 embarrassingly pandering to the drum beat of North America while the games stagnation and destruction of clubs like ours will be the ultimate death of rugby league, good riddance I say.
Reap what you sorrow.
I totally agree Spike. International expansion for a regional sport that is on its uppers is an absolute nonsense in my opinion.
i also think that if the people running the game don’t take positive steps than the game won’t exist as anything but an amateur game within 5 years - at least in Europe anyway.
What I was saying though, is that until someone comes up with a sensible, workable plan for the future of the game, people putting money into clubs at the moment can’t really expect not to lose their money, which isn’t fair on the people just trying to do the best for their club.
There is a vacuum at the top of our game in terms of planning and vision. The concentration is simply focused on feeding the SL cash. That is all that they seem to be interested in. We and the Championship are just not in their plans at all, other than as a drag on them taking more out of Sky's money.
Sadly there doesn't seem to be a big enough personality outside SL to stick his head, or her head, above the parapet and tell the truth loud and clear. Then we would have to hope that clubs would have the courage to back a newly formed comp.
The frustration might have to carry on a little longer, to the point that some clubs have to see that there will be no SL handout coming down and that they will have to stand on their own feet. When they get there they will see their club folding, that is time for decision.
I guess we need to wait until next Friday and see what decision is made regarding TWP. Will they be allowed to stay in SL, with or without a points reduction or a cut of the Sky money.
If their bid is rejected, there are two decisions to be made. First, will they stick with a league of 11 teams in 2021 or retain 12 teams and, if so, how the team to be promoted is selected. They then need to decide what to do with TWP. Will they be kicked out of RL altogether, which will effectively end the TWP venture, and possibly the NA expansion dream, or will they be relegated to the Championship (and I believe that Perez would take that, if promised a cut of central funding possibly with a parachute payment)? In this case, I would hope that Championship clubs should get together and decide whether they can afford the costs of playing in Canada and, indeed, whether this is the time to split from SL/RFL.
In either case, it is time for RFL/SL to clarify their long term vision - if there is one - for the clubs outside SL. It is only then that Championship/League 1 clubs and those involved in the amateur game can decide whether there needs to be fundamental change in the structure of the game in the UK.
There is every chance that covid 19 will prevent attendances at games for the 2021 season, if it starts in February. This means that the future of some clubs will be more at risk, including some SL clubs with substantially reduced Sky funding. I presume that player contracts for 2021 include some provision to reduce pay if crowds are not allowed back in grounds. There will be a further hit, as fans will not buy a season ticket without some guarantee that they can attend games; and some fans will already be lost to the game.
Time will tell which teams will be left standing amidst the rubble of the game following the impact of the covid 19 virus and the TWP expansion fiasco. I only hope that there are still people willing and capable of leading the game of rugby league forward. I have my doubts, but keep my fingers crossed that I can continue to watch Widnes in a successful rugby league set-up in the UK, with central funding distributed fairly amongst all teams.
But ultimately no one should be coming into RL to make money nor should they be coming in to lose money. At present under the sky deal every club can be run financially sustainable if they’re managed accordingly.
The frustration I currently have is regards to the amateur game. Many amateur teams are disappearing, look at Manchester once was rich for RL, now very few amateur clubs still operating in that area, numbers in Cumbria are declining.
The money men want expansion (even tho it won’t make them any money lol) on the other hand, those who care about Rugby League should demand more action in the areas listed above.
Question for uses. I have a hypothesis to why theirs a monopoly in SL but I am interested to hear your thoughts.
From 1975 to 1995, St Helens probably won the league once or twice, Wigan was an up and down team until the late 80s, Leeds only won 1 major trophy etc. However, since SL started, these teams have monopolised the game and win major trophies every year.
My question is, what changed?
Can't argue with that argument Spike, and until the Covid 19 nightmare is over there will be a few Club CEO's having difficulty sleeping. I have my own doubts about our present RFL management. They are steeped in 'big money' teams rather than manageable PT teams. Elstone is a child of the soccer big time teams and probably wants to stay in the same salary bracket!
Its certainly about time that the CEO's of the Championship level clubs should be shouting louder about their future and the future of RL as opposed to SL. There are probably too many Champ/L1 clubs absolutely dependent on Sky money to make a break.
The result is that they are just sitting on their hands and begging so far as we can see and that is too passive imo. A few meetings of the Championship managers could be the start of showing that they are unhappy and looking for progress, even discussing privately the options that we are chewing over. We won't be the only ones I bet!
Spike's reference to the amateur game is well made, they are truly the grass roots of the game - they go and the game goes.
I thought that Dr K might have been more involved by now, or has he given the game up?
Question for uses. I have a hypothesis to why theirs a monopoly in SL but I am interested to hear your thoughts. From 1975 to 1995, St Helens probably won the league once or twice, Wigan was an up and down team until the late 80s, Leeds only won 1 major trophy etc. However, since SL started, these teams have monopolised the game and win major trophies every year. My question is, what changed?
Cash pumped in as a millionaire's plaything. We couldn't compete, nor could that many others tbh.
Contracts which bound clubs to have cash in the bank for years ahead whereas teams like ours balanced the books year on year by buying and selling players. Dougie always reckoned that he always balanced the books, even when he signed Jiffy.
Anyone else here that would like to see Championship clubs and below form a breakaway league ? It would only take a modest tv deal to equal the scraps thrown from Supergreed. Whilst not ideal, even the threat might focus a few minds in Superleague to behave less selfishly. Im sick of hearing of Toronto etc. They have nothing but contempt for heritage clubs , who provide them with a league to play in.Only a 14 team Superleage league nxt year , without “Toronto” , would pursuade me that secession would be a bad idea to explore just now.
I agree with the above comment made on another thread.
What makes me laugh is that the criteria used by RFL for distribution of central funding in the Championship is a Return on Investment, with clubs having to prove what they are contributing to the game. Nobody has yet explained what TWP have contributed to the game in the UK, other than an empty promise of future riches from a non-existent NA tv deal. Perhaps the same criteria should be used in calculating Rimmer's salary, as I am not sure exactly what the RFL are contributing to the game of rugby league (as opposed to SL) in the UK.
As I understand it, the Sky deal was worth about £182.2m with 80% (£146.76m) going to SL; 8% (£14.58m) to the Championship; and 1% (£1.82M) to League 1. The balance (11% or £20.04m) is paid for international and CC coverage. A further £17.8m is paid for coaching and contributions to clubs' charitable foundations. The SL clubs are demanding a bigger slice of the cake from 2021.
SL clubs each receive around £1.83m; Championship clubs receive between £150,000 and £550,000 as determined by the RFL criteria; and League 1 clubs each receive £75,000. Clubs relegated from SL to the Championship will receive a parachute payment of around £800,000.
The disparity between SL and Championship/League 1 clubs is too big and Tony Smith is right when he says that relegation from SL bankrupts clubs. His answer is a SL closed shop with no relegation, but perhaps a fairer distribution of central funding would also avoid potential bankruptcies. This may mean reduced player contracts and fewer Australian imports, but would provide a more balanced and competitive league structure.
If the RFL continue to support their big city NA/UK league and give the most of central funding to this league, with minimum allocation to other clubs, then maybe the time is right for those clubs to go it alone and let the RFL/SL go their own way. Whether this is feasible and a tv deal could be found for the Championship/League 1 that could at least match the current deal with Sky ie about £3m a year, only time will tell.
I would like to see those clubs outside SL - and those like Salford, Castleford, HKR etc who would not meet the super duper international league criteria - to stand up to the RFL/SL and demand change to ensure that the game of rugby league has a future in the UK.
Breakaway would take the lifeblood from many non- SL clubs and will deter them from any move. As the Sky fund reduces and the SL clubs stay greedy the poorer clubs will have to come to a decision and that will be hard if they know fullwell that they cannot survive on the gate money alone.
Truth is that someone has to start to push the RFL to sort things out and that seems a long way off atm.
Covid does make clubs nervous regarding if or when we will get crowds back.
SL clubs each receive around £1.83m; Championship clubs receive between £150,000 and £550,000 as determined by the RFL criteria; and League 1 clubs each receive £75,000. Clubs relegated from SL to the Championship will receive a parachute payment of around £800,000 unless you are Widnes Vikings.
Amended for truth.
SL clubs each receive around £1.83m; Championship clubs receive between £150,000 and £550,000 as determined by the RFL criteria; and League 1 clubs each receive £75,000. Clubs relegated from SL to the Championship will receive a parachute payment of around £800,000 unless you are Widnes Vikings.
Amended for truth.
Yes - forgot that. Why didn't we get that payment? Was it that Rule had received an advance payment prior to Administration or that we breached the rules by releasing players or that it was just us being Widnes!!!!
When all is said and done someone, or some club, is going to have to kick it off and get the discussion going. I can't see Rimmer doing it at present, he has the govt loan to pay back which will keep him busy.
There seem to be plenty of team building going on in the Championship so you never know. If they feel shut out of the SL by NA teams that could make a change a sensible move.
We'll just have to wait and see.
Think we talked at length about a breakaway league last time we were relegated and went into admin. The talk went away when we were promoted again. I'm not being funny I know everyone's being sincere but this literally already happened like 10 years ago where we were convinced this was the answer to the sports problems, because it chimed with the situation we found ourselves in.
If Rule hadn't been hired and S'OC hadn't lost interest and we were a mid-table SL club we wouldn't be having this conversation.
For what it's worth I don't think it's a goer, but I do think the championship could be a much more vibrant competition than it currently is and should be ran as more than an afterthought.
I think the history of the game gives us a slightly rose tinted view of the success a breakaway can result in.